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Herreshoff Forum => Herreshoff Sailing Vessel Classes => Topic started by: Adam on July 22, 2010, 03:20:43 PM

Title: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2010, 03:20:43 PM
I was re-reading an old post by Tom Javor (Museum Guide and an ex-S-class owner) on another site - he's a big proponent of the Fish... He mentioneds that there are two types of Fish - 2 different cabin configurations - One with a short cuddy which was the standard, and one with a Long cuddy almost like the Marlin - but NOT a Marlin. First time I heard this...if this is correct, which hulls had the larger cuddy?
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Steve on July 22, 2010, 04:46:33 PM
This is the first I have heard of it as well.  I had always differentiated 2 types of Fish:  1 with a flat sheer strake with a half-round toe-rail and the other with a moulded sheerstrake.  Do you care to post the message from thet OTHER site ?
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2010, 05:18:36 PM
He writes simply
"...the Marlin was Sid's revsion of hs father's Fish whch came in 2 different cabin configurations."

and later:

"Prior to restoring my S boat I came very close to buying a long cabined Fish (almost identical profile to the wooden Marlin) from the later group."

The "Later group" he refers to is the fact that the Fish were done in multiple (3) builds - He states:

"Fish were built in 3 major groups; both the first and third groups were orignally named or fish species, the second group (built for the sailing program at Warwick Country Club) were named for cartoon characters."

So I'm infuring the "Long Cabined Fish" was from the later builds - or at least the one he was looking to restore. I wonder if only a few - even one - Fish was done this way and Mr. Sid thought he'd make these a seperate build with some slight mods as the "Marlin"?

If this is all true there has got to be a note in the builder records on a "long Cabined Fish"....
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2010, 05:39:50 PM
I went through the builder records for all 48 Fish - see no mention of some sort of cabin mods. Also looked at the numbering sequence and while certainly not definitive, I'd argue that there are 4 builds not three 788-826, 939-943, 972-978, and 1379 & 1380 (the last two).

Seems and E-mail to Tom is in order. Maybe he remembers the name of the boat with the Long Cabin....?
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Steve on July 22, 2010, 05:52:11 PM
This is still news to me.  Check out the article written by Rick Meyer in the Documents section of the Registry entitled Fish Class History.  This is the way I understand it:  There were 2 groups of boats delivered to Seawanhaka in 1916 and 1917.  Then, there were 2 groups of boats delivered to Warwick in 1926 and 1927.  The primary difference between the Seawanhaka and Warwick boats was the sheerstrake.  This is something of a simplification, because there were a few one-offs delivered outside of these fleet purchases.  If there were 2 cabin configurations, I would love to learn the specifics.
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2010, 06:35:14 PM
Well the number sequencing would correspond to what Rick Meyer has. I've sent an e-mail to Tom....
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Steve on July 22, 2010, 10:20:44 PM
It also could be that Tom was considering a Fish from the later group that had been modified by a previous owner.  That was not uncommon.  POMPANO, transacted this year, had such a modification (for example).  FELICITY (no number) does also.
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2010, 02:50:56 AM
Tom says the Fish in question was in Noank - owned by a guy in Stonington - and was for sale approx 15 years ago. He thinks she is still there. If I search the dstabase Fish # 791 SHARK fits exactly....Now can anyone confirm her cabin structure?

Status: FOUND
Original Name: Shark Current Name: Shark
Hull Number: 791 Boat Location: Noank, CT
Contracted By: J.P. Morgan Current Owner: DuFontaine
Contract Date: 1/10/1916 Owner Since: 2003
Class: Fish Sub-Class:
Original Rig: J&M Current Rig:
Original Price: $875 Restored By: MPG
LOA: 20 ft. 9 in. Beam: 7 ft. 1 in.
LWL: 16 ft. 0 in. Draft: 3 ft. 3 in.
Designer: NGH
Owner Years Location Boat Name Sail No.
J.P. Morgan 1916 - 1919 Shark
J.F. Birmingham 1920 Shark
Noank, CT Cabrilla
David Smith 1984 - 1999 Stonington, CT Shark SC 6
Jim McGuire 1999 - 2003 Noank, CT Shark
Original Name:
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Steve on July 23, 2010, 12:02:27 PM
I was just speaking to McGuire last week.  SHARK used to be owned by Peter Vermilya (it looks like this entry needs an update).  Both Peter and Jim are knowledgeable guys from the Seaport, and neither mentioned anything about SHARK being different.  As one of the original Seawanhaka boats, sold for one-design fleet racing, I have a hard-time with the idea that she was differecnt from the others.  She is still in Noank, owned by someone named Jean DuFontineau.  At least, that is how Jim pronounced it ...  he wasn't sure of the spelling and I can't find that name in any of the directories.
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2010, 05:07:38 PM
Tom said she was at "the yard Dana Avery runs - Noank Marine?". Says he was told she is still there as well as "some other Fish Class". I believe the registry shows one other in Noank as well....I sent him all the fish from the registry - he's sure he'll remember her name if he see's it - she had no Plate BTW....

FYI it's Mystic River Boathouse - Just looked him up....
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Steve on July 23, 2010, 05:49:08 PM
We are planning a run up to Mystic sometime in the next few weeks for some kayaking on the river.  I'll check it out.  We'll also be stopping at City Island on the way by ...  remember the old SCAPA exercise ?
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2010, 07:49:11 PM
Funny you mentioned SCAPA - I reached out to Charles again - As well as his broker (only one guy is dealing the boat now I guess) - asked if the boat existed - got an e-mail from the broker asking if I was interested.... Explained I might have someone who is. Then Silence...again. The boat itself I think is in Port Washington.
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: JimNewman on July 24, 2010, 02:27:06 PM
The larger cabin Fish was called a Marlin, the last few hulls of the Fish design built by HMC.  My sister has one, called Matsya.  I think there were only four or so, built in the '30s, but the HMC records are clear on this.  The cockpit is narrower than a Fish, the tiller comes over rather than through the transom, and the cabin trunk (still pointy at the forward end) runs well forward so the mast steps through the cabin top rather than through the foredeck. Some had auxiliary engines. 

I believe all the boats called Fish or Warwick Neck Class originally had the short cabin.  My boat (now Felicity, perhaps originally Felix, hull 972) was modified to be more like a Marlin by moving the aft cabin bulkhead aft two or three frames, making the cabin much larger, and putting on a sliding companionway hatch.  I think that was done in the 1970's when she was owned by Peter Strock of Vineyard Haven.

There is another boat that I think is a Marlin here in Falmouth, albeit with a rectangular cabin trunk, which has been out of the water for decades.

Hull 1420 (1937) is listed as a Marlin.

By the way, my sister purchased her Marlin in Noank two or three years ago, so it may have featured in this discussion.

And the Cape Cod Shipbuilding version of the Fish is also called a Marlin.  It has a counter stern (rudder inboard) and a very different rig. 
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Jon Brooks on July 25, 2010, 12:03:53 AM
Jim is correct.  The Fish and the Marlin are the same boat, but the Marlin has a larger cabin and a smaller cockpit.

Jon  8)
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Steve on July 25, 2010, 01:45:49 AM
I stopped in at City Island today and took a look at SCAPA.  I am pretty sure it is the real thing.  Beyond any doubt, it is in bad shape and needs a full restoration.  I was speaking to one of the guys in the yard, and he gave me the number of someone who may have a little more info.  I will try (operative word - try) to overlay the plans from MIT on top of the photos I took and see how well they line up.  More to come.
Title: Re: Fish question
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2010, 04:26:51 AM
Jim/Jon - Yes that is how we understood it as well - and what the registry shows. Tom though was very clear that the boat in question was a Fsh and not a Marlin - he called it a long cabined version but was different then a Marlin. I have my doubts as the builders record does not reflect a third type of Fish/Marlin. Of course as Steve noted, someone could have modified a Fish later on...