Author Topic: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?  (Read 33682 times)

Jon

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Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« on: August 28, 2008, 10:25:49 PM »
So I've seen (and sailed around... and around... and around...) a bunch of these Joel White "Haven 12 1/2's" now.  They're too fat, too slow, improperly balanced, and really: are there that many places you need to get into that doesn't have 30" of water?

Don't get me wrong.  I don't think Joel did a horrible job, it's just that as far as I can tell perfection was fiddled with to gain a couple of inches in fixed draft, only to be lost when the board is down.  Of course, I think the Fishers Island and Cape Cod boats wee also playing with perfection to no gain too!

So I guess my question remains: what is the point?

Jon  8)

Adam

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 04:17:41 PM »
Well not sure I'm as hard on Joel White as you  :) , wish we had more designers like him out there with the balance for art and speed - and not just speed (L. Frances's "Lovely" vs. "Unlovely").

I wonder if NGH would agree with you...I always found it interesting that HGH didn't take the 12.5 keel design further (IE Larger) seeing its success - The Fish had some success and there was the Marlin, the BB14, 17 , and I suppose , to my non expert eye at least, the FI31 and Newport 29 seem "based" on the basic shape - but he seemed to prefer a centerboard versions (the Alerion's, Pleasure, BB25, etc.) later in life (OK this is all IMO so don't yell at me  - and this is the internet afterall :) ). Of course he was sailing in the shallows of Biscane Bay and Bermuda by then so something of function might have been prudent. He might very well have liked a centerboard version of a 12. Sidney seemed to embrace the 12 hull and designed a number of larger nearly exact scalled up versions for CCSB -  my boat for one.

Jon

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2008, 03:32:24 PM »
I have no problem with designs based on the original 12, although they haven't all been that successful.

I love the Fish, BB25, and Alerion, while I'm not so enthralled by the BB14 & 17 and Marlin (CCSB version with opaque cudahy).

I actually think Halsey's full-keel version of the Alerion is actually better than Nat's (heresy!!).

I guess my real question for Joel would be: does the compromise pay off?  From what I've seen in my limited experience sailing side-by-side in the shallow waters of Great South Bay, the original 12 is faster, more weatherly, and (a significant point) easier to sail, as there is no futzing with a board. 

With the Haven 12 all these advantages are lost for a few inches of draft gain?

Jon  8)

Adam

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 02:47:07 PM »
Speak of the Devil - Jon you going to take a look - She's in your neck of the woods  ;D

http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/boa/833610892.html

Steve

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2008, 12:13:21 AM »
My guess is that the Haven is popular because a home builder can obtain plans and support.  An H12 builder needs to have a strong backbone to stand up to the legal assault from Cape Cod Shipbuilding, which probably deters many. 

If you look at Dave Corcoran, Alec Brainerd, and Bill Harding, it appears that the CCSB bluster is just a threat, though.  Does anyone have a copy of the court case between Cape Cod Shipbuilding and Doughdish from about 1980?  I would love to read the actual ruling.

-Steve

Adam

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 02:04:16 PM »
If I understand things - CCSB has the rights to the Herreshoff "Name" and "Trademark" for several (but NOT all) of the smaller boats - including the "S" Class, marlin/Fish, and H12 1/2. MIT has the rights to the "Design" of all the Herreshoff boats (which is why you can build 'em - not call them an H 12 1/2 - but have to get the plans from MIT - for a nominal fee - oh and not get sued by CCSB - although you might get a nasty gram letter ;D ).

Jon

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 08:46:41 PM »
I remember taking road trips with dad to see the differences in between the CCSB 12's and the Eddy & Duff Doughdish.  The CCSB boats used the Cape Cod Bullseye hull mold, and therefore have the curved transom and higher cockpit sole for the "self-bailing" cockpit.  They also weigh in at 1375 pounds.

The Eddy & Duff Doughdish was built from a plug made from a wooden 12.  It has a stiffer, thicker hull made of airex sandwich core fibreglass.  The Doughdish weight is supposed to match a "wet" wooden 12 at mid-season, and weighs in at 1500 pounds. 

The Doughdish is class accepted by the H-12 class association, while the CCSB 12 is not.  Now of course you could say that Bill Harding is also the class association president, and you'd be right.  But the hulls aren't the same between the two either. 

Other comparisons:

The CCSB boats were trimmed in mahogany.  The E&D boats in teak. (I like mahogany better)  The CCSB boats had nicer hardware.  But today there's good hardware to be had.  There wasn't in 1981!  The E&D boats have the proper shaped molded shear-strake rail.  This is a major factor to me, along with the varnished teak on the inside of the transom.

Jon  8)

Adam:  that boat on Lake Champlain would be perfect if it didn't have a centerboard.  If I wanted one, I'd buy a Long Island Class sailboat: 16' by 5' by 8.5 tons...

Adam

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2008, 09:26:03 PM »
Hah! That LI died an appropriate death in one of the tropical storms in the late 80's.... Board dropped stuck in sand, the wave motion ripped the trunk out and to the bottom (4') she went. Pounded by waves in the shalows by the next morning only 15' of ribbs were left! In a month nothing - completely buried....

I tell you I was at the Cape Cod Shipbuilders Show this past Feb and CCSB had one of the 12 1/2's - I couldn't see the "curve" - and if you ask me it was one pretty boat - I'm sure lined up with Doughdish I'd see the diferences - but boy no mistaking a 12.... Dark Blue hull - sold for like 42K. Boat show "Special"!

Jon

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2008, 12:44:57 AM »
42K?!!?  Are you sure they didn't build a new wood one for that price?  :o

The transoms on the boats I've seen are curved just like the Cape Cod Bullseye.  Have they altered the mold?  Do they now have the molded sheer strake?

I do agree that CCSB makes a pretty boat.  Nice folks too.

Jon  8)

Adam

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2008, 06:50:33 PM »
Yeah, Base w/Sails is 37K and change....Seems one can buy an "original" in pretty good shape for such an amount. I was told that Doughdish is similar priced....

rbgarr

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Re: Haven 12 1/2... What's the Point?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 04:53:37 PM »
It's an old topic but my guess is that the Haven was, in part, designed for home builders and people who want a boat like the H 12 that is a bit easier to launch and retrieve with a trailer and keep at home. Many ramps nowadays are less deep and drop off less sharply than older ones. 12 1/2s pretty much have to be craned in unless taken care of by boatyards. A friend chose to build a similar glued-lap Somes Sound (designed by David Brooks) for that reason as well as for the detailed and personal construction help: http://www.brooksboatsdesigns.com/Somes%20Sound%20main/SomesSoundmain.html