New Bedford 29

[Adam]

In Bill Robinsons book "The Great American Yacht Designers", in the chapter on NGH there is a line drawing of a "New Bedford 29" named "Rogue" from 1914. It's obvious to me the line drawing is much later as it shows deck hardware such as safety lines and stanchions - even on the pulpit. The design looks to me to be nothing more then a Newport 29, but the LOA and the draft is slightly longer and deeper (36'9" vs 35'7" and 5' vs 5'4"). Beam and LWL remain the same. If I remember correctly one or two of the later Newport 29's were re-designed by NGH  - lenthened and made deeper (Purdy?) - so I wonder if these "modified" Newports were refered to as "New Bedford 29's" - either locally or by HMCo.?

Also the only HMC named Rogue was a completely different hull design from the late 1800's....

Anyone know?

[Steve]

Adam:  This is a new one on me.  I'll poke around.

[Adam]

I believe I solved my own mistery. While thumbing through Waldo Howlands "A Life in Boats:The Concordia Years" He makes note of Rogue - Seems "Rogue" was Built/Designed in 1953 by CT builder Seth Persson (company is still around I believe). The 29's were very active racers in the 1950's on Buzzards Bay and Rogue was raced in the class (Dolphin and Mischief are mentioned). Howland states her rig was a "modern" 7/8th rig. I'd guess she's near copy of the later versions of the class.... Wonder if she's still around?

Oh Silly me... Gotta love the internet - Query Newport 29 Rogue and you get little - but query Seth Persson Rogue and.... - Seems Her slight differences in dimentions were due engine mods. Also interestingly seems her lines were based on offsets Sidney Herreshoff took in the 40's..... Anyway I guess officially there are at least 5 Newport 30's (4 by HMCo.).

[finler]

i have a boat very similar to the rogue drawing. it is a 21 footer that i bought from a man who stated a couple was writing a book about old vessels. he stated in a letter that the couple had been searching his vessel and that they were looking for its sister vessel. could this be the line drawn boat in the book. i would like to read this book

[Adam]

Welcome Finler - Well Rogue is a Newport 29 - which is 29 feet on the water line, almost 36' overall so yours would not be a Newport 29. The line drawing was done by Seth Persson when he built Rogue - Her original lines were taken off another Newport 29 done by Sidney Herreshoff in the 1940's. Her design is similar to many boats by many designers/builders in the following decades - so yours could be by a number of folks. Do you have any pic's? Builder’s plates? Any other info would help....

Interesting side note - Sidney is listed as the designer of Rogue in a few places because of his offsets...She also participated in a few Herreshoff Rendezvous back in the 80's.

Interesting Side note^2: I’ve read that Brian Rief is going to build (if not already started) a Newport 29 at his ME shop: http://www.brionrieffboatbuilder.com/

[finler]

Welcome Finler - Well Rogue is a Newport 29 - which is 29 feet on the water line, almost 36' overall so yours would not be a Newport 29. The line drawing was done by Seth Persson when he built Rogue - Her original lines were taken off another Newport 29 done by Sidney Herreshoff in the 1940's. Her design is similar to many boats by many designers/builders in the following decades - so yours could be by a number of folks. Do you have any pic's? Builder’s plates? Any other info would help....

Interesting side note - Sidney is listed as the designer of Rogue in a few places because of his offsets...She also participated in a few Herreshoff Rendezvous back in the 80's.

Interesting Side note^2: I’ve read that Brian Rief is going to build (if not already started) a Newport 29 at his ME shop: http://www.brionrieffboatbuilder.com/

o.k. but do you know of any mention in that book of the early ROGUE. it was around the time before the book was published. i cant find a builder plate. the dimentions match rogue well but the beam measures 7ft 6in and rogue is 7ft8in 

[Adam]

Hi finler - The Newport 29 "rogue" is a different boat. I believe the Rogue you are talking about is a early fin keeler "22 Foot Class" boat built around 1900 - which closely matches your hull. She is Hull # 549. The reason the demensions don't exacly match is in those days most boats raced to a "rating rule" - and NOT as a "one Design" class that is common today. So different designers - and even the same designer that would "improve" upon the design - could produce boats of different dementions that would race against each other. The designer was much more a factor in individual boats performance then today.

The book that mentions her is "Herreshoff of Bristol" by Carlton Pinheiro, Maynard Bray (1989).

Also there is a mention in a NY Times column of the period (1905) at a Seawanhaka YC race (maybe yours is one of the other boats - "Montauk" and "Kanaka" are mentioned?) - http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F0CE3D8143AE733A25752C1A9609C946497D6CF

If you could take some pictures it would help in identifying if yours is truely a "22 footer".

Here are her dementions from the Registry:

Status: UNKNOWN
Original Name: Rogue Current Name:
Hull Number: 549 Boat Location:
Contracted By: E.T. Bedford Current Owner:
Contract Date: 11/3/1900 Owner Since:
Class: Sub-Class:
Original Rig: J&M Current Rig:
Original Price: $2,500.00 Restored By:
LOA: Beam: 7'8"
LWL: 21' Draft: 5'3"
Designer: NGH
Provenance: E.T. Bedford ; Rogue

[Steve]

So whaddya think Adam?  Have we found another?

[Adam]

This ones a bit tough. Brian ("Finler") sent me a whole zip file of photo's - I'll post some later. I'm certainly not an expert on Herreshoff construction - I'll have to default to yourself, Jon or others here - but there are a number of similarities. Certainly the hull appears to be one of the 21 footers...This is what I know...

In B&P"s book they call the class the "21 footer class" (interesting that the NYT article calls it the under 22 footers). It appears to be based on a very broad rating rule (was this still the Seawanhaka rule?) as centerboard boats as well as full keel boats competed in the same class - In fact Rogues two sister ships built at the same time -Onagh and Radiant - Radiant was a centerboarder and two feet broader.

It also appears that the first in the class was the well known "Cock Robin" #460 (1895). It is also apparent that many of the 21 foot LWL boats in the registry are also in the class although the registry does not list them as such - See "Hazard", "Cockatoo", and "Jilt" as examples.

Now for the clues in the Brian's Pictures - The hull is in need of a major resto, and much has been stripped off.....But....

Certainly the hull shape and dimensions conform to the rule - so I'd say yep she'd definitely a 21 Foot class. If Brian is correct on the 7' 6" beam - there is only one I can find - that would be Cock Robin.

Now the not so sure part - she appears as a raised flush deck boat with the cabin extending right to the gunnels - something I wouldn't expect from this time frame (IE the 1890's through the very early 1900's). I know HMCo. did build flush decks - see the cruiser Ventura #867 - but thought this was a 1920's/30's vogue type thing - but of course I could be wrong - and of course a lot can happen to a deck/house configuration in 103 years.

Hardware - now this can be replaced of course, and much is already missing, so nothing is definitive -  but there are pics of cleats (not Herreshoff - appear old chromed - like like those Bronze Rostand type), blocks both Wood and bronze open frame type - non herreshoff, and the traveler (don't think is Herreshoff either). The winches could be...The rigging is doubtful to be original.

If I was a betting man Id say A 21 footer class, but not Herreshoff built/designed....Again I reserve the right to be wrong 

Let me know what you think - I'll post a few pics - and send the Zip file....

[Steve]

Adam:  I saw the pix and replied with the following before I read this post:

"Whew ….  I did a 2 year restoration on a Buzzards Bay 15 that I thought was a basket case.  This thing is going to take a LOT of work and money.  It’s hard to tell if this is an HMC or not.  The coaming and hardware don’t look like it, but the shape of the butt blocks are very Herreshoff-esque.  The shape and the planking look like Herreshoff as well.  That cross-bracing under the deck … I suppose that has been put there for stabilization and is not original ?  I think a hands-on inspection is called for."

I agree .. there are things that make me think HMC and things that don't.

Brian:  Where is the boat now?  Do you know anything about the string of prior owners or where the boat has been in the past? 

Looks like you have yourself a real project.

[Steve]

Adam:  You observations about the 21-footers is interesting.  The ones that are designated in that class in the registry are classified as such based on notations in the builder's record.  However, the record is not always definitive.  I looked at the model inscriptions: Cock Robin 461, Onward 487, and Mimosa III 610 were built from the same model.  Cockatoo 483 and Sally III 482 were built from the same model.  Hazard 480 and Fly 481 were built from the same model.  Jilt 493, Swanhild III 517, and Sintram 494 were built from the same model.  They all have similar dimensions, as you point out.  Perhaps they should all be classified as members of the 21-foot class? 

Of all of those, we only have located Jilt (owned by the Herreshoff Marine Museum) and Mimosa III (in France).  The Mimosa III entry in the registry contains a photo.

-Steve

[finler]

the boat is shrink wraped out back in my dads old farm.the missing hardware is in a box.i can tell of some changes over the years going through the boat.yesterday i took the rogue print out to the boat and did some more measuring on the lead and rudderand it does check against the print.the history of the boat is it was built as a sloop (one of three) it raced on the east coast in the 20's as an "eagle"and than an "R" before the 30's. back than it was named the GREEN PARROT and raced in the chicago mac and queens cup races.than named SWANEE in the 1959 queens cup race in lake michigan.it only took third place that year.

[Adam]

Steve - I too assumed that metal cross bracing to be added on - which is why I didn't mention it.

Mimosa III appears to be a "larger" boat "based on Cock Robin" and not a 21 footer.

As much as this boat is in bad shape, I was surprised at how well her overall shear has held up - maybe that metal suport structure has helped and maybe the full cabin structure helped as well.

As for the fact that her cabin structure was a bit different - I did see that Venture and Yawlcat was based on Au Revoir - built 1908 - so perhaps this type of raised flush deck is not an impossibility for the era.

I asked Brian if he knew the exct draft as well - The shape of her keel does NOT match Cock Robins - at least visually... I see Brian just replied....

[Adam]

Brian - do you have the full boats dementions?
IE:
LOA
Draft
Exact Beam

In that box of "hardware" is there a builders plate? is any of the gear stamped with makers marks?

I find nothing on the net with a boat that raced under the names Green Parrot or Swanee in those dates - but that's not really surprising. It appears some of the 21 footers could race as "R" boats later on.

As for comparing Rogue to your hull - what "Rogue" Print are you using?

[finler]

shop print drawer 76